No One Is Defying Trump Like Brazil’s President

After this article was published, President Trump imposed the 50 percent tariffs against Brazil that he had been threatening.

President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva of Brazil is outraged.

President Trump is trying to push around his nation of 200 million, dangling 50 percent tariffs as a threat, Mr. Lula said in an interview. And yet, he added, the U.S. president is ignoring his government’s offers to talk.

“Be sure that we are treating this with the utmost seriousness. But seriousness does not require subservience,” the Brazilian president said. “I treat everyone with great respect. But I want to be treated with respect.”

Mr. Lula granted his first interview to The New York Times in 13 years on Tuesday, in part because he wanted to speak to the American people about his frustration with Mr. Trump.

Mr. Trump has said that, starting on Friday, he plans to impose 50 percent tariffs on Brazilian goods, in large part because Brazilian authorities have charged former President Jair Bolsonaro with trying to hold on to power after losing the 2022 election.

Mr. Trump has called the case a “witch hunt” and wants it dropped. Mr. Lula said that was not up for negotiation. “Maybe he doesn’t know that here in Brazil, the judiciary is independent,” he said.

In the interview, Mr. Lula said that the American president is infringing on Brazil’s sovereignty.

“At no point will Brazil negotiate as if it were a small country up against a big country,” he said. “We know the economic power of the United States, we recognize the military power of the United States, we recognize the technological size of the United States.”

“But that doesn’t make us afraid,” he added. “It makes us concerned.”

There is perhaps no world leader defying President Trump as strongly as Mr. Lula.

The president of Brazil — a leftist in his third term who is arguably this century’s most important Latin American statesman — has been hitting back at Mr. Trump in speeches across Brazil. His social media pages have suddenly become filled with references to Brazil’s sovereignty. And he has taken to wearing a hat that says “Brazil belongs to Brazilians.”

On Tuesday, he said that he was studying retaliatory tariffs against American exports if Mr. Trump carries through with his threats. And he said that if the Jan. 6, 2021, riot on the U.S. Capitol had happened in Brazil, Mr. Trump would be facing prosecution just like Mr. Bolsonaro.

“The democratic state of law for us is a sacred thing,” he said in a lofty room draped in a colorful tapestry in the modernist presidential palace, where emus roam the lawns. “Because we have already lived through dictatorships, and we don’t want any more.”

The White House did not respond to a request for comment.

Mr. Trump has gone after Brazil to come to the aid of his ally, Mr. Bolsonaro. His proposed 50 percent tariffs would be among the highest levies he has issued against any country, and they appear to be the only ones driven by overtly political reasons and not economic ones.

Mr. Trump has said that he sees his own legal fight in the criminal trial against Mr. Bolsonaro.

Mr. Trump and Mr. Bolsonaro — two politicians with strikingly similar political styles — both lost re-election and then both denied having lost. Their subsequent efforts to undermine the vote culminated in mobs of their supporters storming their nations’ capital buildings, in failed bids to prevent the election winners from assuming the presidency.

The stark difference is that four years later, Mr. Trump returned to power, while Mr. Bolsonaro is now facing prison.

This month, Alexandre de Moraes, the Brazilian Supreme Court justice overseeing Mr. Bolsonaro’s criminal case, ordered the former Brazilian president to wear an ankle monitor ahead of his upcoming trial on coup charges. Justice Moraes said that Mr. Bolsonaro’s efforts to lobby Mr. Trump suggested he might try to flee the country. Mr. Bolsonaro could face decades in prison if convicted.

In an interview with The Times in January, Mr. Bolsonaro said that to avoid prosecution in Brazil, he was pinning his hopes on intervention from Mr. Trump. At the time, the wish seemed unrealistic. Then, this month, Mr. Trump intervened.

In a July 9 letter to Mr. Lula, Mr. Trump called the criminal case against Mr. Bolsonaro “an international disgrace” and compared it to his own past charges. “It happened to me, times 10,” he said.

He also criticized Justice Moraes for his rulings on social media content. And he said that Brazil was an unfair trading partner, claiming incorrectly that the United States had a trade deficit with Brazil. The United States had a $7.4 billion trade surplus with Brazil last year on about $92 billion in trade.

Mr. Lula, 79, said it was “disgraceful” that Mr. Trump issued his threats on his social media site, Truth Social. “President Trump’s behavior strayed from all standards of negotiations and diplomacy,” he said. “When you have a commercial disagreement, a political disagreement, you pick up the phone, you schedule a meeting, you talk and you try to solve the problem. What you don’t do is tax and give an ultimatum.”

He said that Mr. Trump’s efforts to help Mr. Bolsonaro are going to be paid for by Americans who will face higher prices for coffee, beef, orange juice and other products that are significantly sourced from Brazil. “Neither the American people nor the Brazilian people deserve this,” he said. “Because we are going to move from a 201-year-old diplomatic relationship of win-win, to a political relationship of lose-lose.”

On Tuesday, the U.S. commerce secretary, Howard Lutnick, said that imports of some goods not plentiful in the United States could be exempt from tariffs, citing coffee as an example. Thirty percent of U.S. coffee imports come from Brazil, according to U.S. trade data. Mr. Lutnick recently spoke to Vice President Geraldo Alckmin of Brazil, whom Mr. Lula has tapped as Brazil’s chief negotiator in the trade dispute, Brazilian officials said.

Mr. Lula openly rooted for former Vice President Kamala Harris, Mr. Trump’s opponent, in the 2024 election. He said that he sent a letter to Mr. Trump ahead of his inauguration in January, but the two men have never spoken. Mr. Lula said that Mr. Trump is the only U.S. president since Bill Clinton with whom he hasn’t had a good relationship and that he was ready to open dialogue. But he said he felt that Mr. Trump was not.

“What’s preventing it is that no one wants to talk,” he said. “Everyone knows that I have asked to make contact.”

On July 11, Mr. Trump told reporters, referring to Mr. Lula: “Maybe at some point I’ll talk to him. Right now I’m not.”

A week later, Mr. Trump posted a letter he wrote to Mr. Bolsonaro, saying his trial “should end immediately!”

Mr. Trump said the tariffs are also meant to target Brazil’s Supreme Court for what he says are “censorship orders” against U.S. tech companies.

Justice Moraes has ordered tech companies to take down thousands of accounts and posts that he says threaten democracy. Yet he has largely kept his orders under seal and declined to explain why certain accounts are dangerous. He has also jailed several people for posting threats against Brazil’s institutions online.

He has been cast as Brazil’s guardian of democracy by many on the left, but his growing power has also raised concerns about whether he poses his own threat to Brazil’s democracy.

Now he has become a target of the White House.

On Wednesday, the U.S. Treasury Department announced that it had imposed sanctions against Justice Moraes under the Global Magnitsky Act, a severe escalation in the feud. The act is designed to punish foreigners accused of serious human-rights violations or corruption, and it places significant financial restrictions on individuals.

“De Moraes is responsible for an oppressive campaign of censorship, arbitrary detentions that violate human rights and politicized prosecutions — including against former President Jair Bolsonaro,” Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent said in a news release.

Brazil’s Supreme Court did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Eduardo Bolsonaro, the son of the former president, has been in Washington lobbying for such sanctions for months.

The State Department had already revoked the visas of Justice Moraes, other Brazilian Supreme Court justices and their families for “censorship” and a “political witch hunt against Jair Bolsonaro.”

When asked about the potential sanctions on Tuesday, a day before they were announced, Mr. Lula said: “If what you’re telling me is true, it’s more serious than I imagined. The Supreme Court of a country has to be respected not only by its own country, but it has to be respected by the world.”

Ana Ionova and Lis Moriconi contributed reporting.

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