Leaders squeeze in jabs late in debate, ruling out Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil working with Sinn Féin

LAST UPDATE | 55 mins ago

THE FINAL LEADERS’ debate of the general election campaign took place tonight on RTÉ.

Fine Gael’s Simon Harris, Fianna Fáil’s Micheál Martin and Sinn Féin’s Mary Lou McDonald clashed over housing, justice, and how coalition talks might play out, among other key issues.

The leaders of the three largest political parties faced questions from Miriam O’Callaghan and Sarah McInerney on a special edition of Prime Time.

The Journal followed every twist and turn of the final leaders’ debate.

Reporter Lauren Boland was liveblogging throughout the evening. Political journalists gathered at RTÉ’s studios in the hours before the debate, including our politics editor Christine Finn, who was watching the debate from the Prime Time set. Our FactCheck editor Stephen McDermott was on hand to factcheck the standout claims made by the party leaders.

Here’s the play-by-play of how the debate panned out.

4 hrs ago 7:44PM

Good evening! Lauren Boland here. I’ll be liveblogging the final leaders’ debate of this election campaign. Whether you’re planning to watch it live on the television, just looking to get updates on the highlights, or catching up after the debate, we’ll have everything you need to know here on The Journal.

It’s just under two hours until the debate kicks off on RTÉ One during Primetime. Our politics editor Christina Finn is stationed in Donnybrook waiting for the three party leaders to arrive.

4 hrs ago 7:52PM

The leaders taking part in the debate tonight are Fine Gael’s Simon Harris, Fianna Fáil’s Micheál Martin, and Sinn Féin’s Mary Lou McDonald.

The three of them were in the RTÉ studios for a debate last week too but the stage was a fair bit busier that time, with ten party leaders participating – here’s a reminder of how that went down. 

4 hrs ago 8:00PM

Ahead of tonight’s debate, Miriam O’Callaghan said it is sure to be “intense for everyone involved” and a “chance for viewers to see all three leaders up close and personal”.

Co-host Sarah McInerney noted that the debate takes place a mere three days before polling day on Friday and that it’ll “be the first and only debate between the three people contesting for the office of Taoiseach”.

McInerney said that “people want to know who is going to fix the housing crisis, who can address the cost of living in Ireland and who will tackle hospital waiting lists”.

Will the debate shed light on those questions?

4 hrs ago 8:04PM

You can also follow our politics editor Christina Finn, reporting live from RTÉ.

3 hrs ago 8:32PM

Taoiseach Simon Harris is the first to arrive. 

Speaking to reporters on his way in, he’s asked whether his team had communicated to RTÉ that the carer Charlotte Fallon (who he was filmed being dismissive of) was a Sinn Féin member in an effort to stop the video from being shared.

He says: “I don’t believe so.”

3 hrs ago 8:34PM

“I’m really conscious that while it’s only really hours to go until polling stations open across this country, there are many voters who remain undecided,” says Harris on his way in to the debate.

3 hrs ago 8:38PM

Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald has landed.

Christina asks her what Sinn Féin party members would make of a coalition deal between Sinn Féin and Fianna Fáil.

McDonald says the “best” option would be for a government with neither Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil – but leaves the door open for finding common ground with Fianna Fáil.

“We’ll see what frame of mind Michéal is in [at the debate],” she says, with a hint of a smile.

3 hrs ago 8:50PM

Completing the trio, Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin has arrived too.

3 hrs ago 9:12PM

A message from our politics editor Christina Finn:

The RTE Press Room is my home for the next couple of hours. This is where all the reporters and photographers watch the live studio debate and file their copy. There’s coffee and tea cakes, so that should keep me going.

3 hrs ago 9:25PM

As we wait for the debate to start, here’s some new polling figures for the five-seat Kerry constituency from TG4.  

Independent Michael Healy Rae fared the best in th TG4/Ipsos B&A poll, receiving 27% of first votes from those surveyed.

His brother Danny Healy-Rae came in fifth on 10%, but Michael is likely to have a significant surplus above the quota that would transfer largely to Danny, securing him a seat too, according to the poll.

Outgoing Minister for Education Norma Foley came second on 14%, followed by Fine Gael candidate Billy O’Shea and Sinn Féin candidate Pa Daly.

2 hrs ago 9:28PM

Some photos of the three leaders from their arrivals at RTÉ in the last hour:

2 hrs ago 9:37PM

Here we go now. It’s all about to kick off.

2 hrs ago 9:38PM

The three party leaders are stood at podiums quite close to each other. None of the ‘opposite sides of the stage’ stuff you’d see in the likes of the recent US president election debates – they’re practically shoulder to shoulder.

2 hrs ago 9:40PM

The first question is to Simon Harris and it’s about that video from Kanturk on his interaction with a carer and whether Fine Gael communicated with RTÉ in the aftermath about coverage of the matter.

Harris insists that the party’s communication was to offer a statement about its position on care and disabilities.

He says he has ‘no knowledge’ of any request being made not to air the clip.

2 hrs ago 9:42PM

Here’s what the set-up looks like tonight:

2 hrs ago 9:45PM

Sinn Féin’s Mary Lou McDonald defends a point in her party’s manifesto to commission a review of RTÉ’s objectivity. In response, Fianna Fáil’s Micheál Martin – after almost interjecting while McDonald was speaking, but then holding back – says he finds that proposal concerning.

2 hrs ago 9:48PM

McDonald takes aim at Harris and Martin, saying they should feel “ashamed” over stories from members of the public about struggles to receive the help and healthcare they need. Martin and Harris are both eager to try to dispel that criticism.

2 hrs ago 10:00PM

We’re rocketing through issues – the questions have turned to cost of living.

Martin opens his answer by saying that Covid and the post-Covid period has had a significant impact. Presenter Miriam O’Callaghan challenges him on that – not everything can be brought back to Covid – but he sidesteps around it.

McDonald says Sinn Féin wants to deliver “permanent ongoing savings”. She says she supports the one-off payments that the government made in the last couple of Budgets – making sure to add that she would have gone even further on them – but that she “cannot understand” why it proceeded with fuel tax increases.

Martin and Harris do some head shaking as McDonald criticises Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil’s performance and plans. In response, Martin says that business would be “crucified” under Sinn Féin. Harris cites the trade risks posed by Donald Trump’s presidency in the US – insisting that his party would spend less than either of the other two, calling Sinn Féin’s spending “reckless and irresponsible”.

McDonald says to Martin that his party “brought the crash”.

Harris jumps in: “And we brought people out of it.”

2 hrs ago 10:05PM

Our FactCheck Editor Stephen McDermott is live fact-checking this evening’s debate.

He’s already checked a couple of claims from Harris, Martin and McDonald around the cost of living.

Firstly, Simon Harris said that you’d have to “go back to the 70s to find a harsher period of inflation” in Ireland before the level of inflation seen in 2022.

While his broad point that Ireland’s inflation was at its highest in decades, 2022 saw the highest rise in the CSO’s Consumer Price Index since 1984, when annual inflation ran at 9.7% (compared to 9.1% in August 2022).

Micheál Martin also said that post-Covid problems and the war in Ukraine “really drove the energy price increases” seen in 2022.

While that is also true to an extent, a €15 increase in the price of fuels as a result of carbon tax hikes between 2021 and 2022 also played a role.

Finally, Mary Lou McDonald claimed that carbon taxes don’t have the effect of getting Ireland to its 2030 target on emissions.

Although the carbon tax has contributed to a reduction in Ireland’s emissions, Ireland is currently projected by the Environmental Protection Agency to achieve only a 29% reduction in emissions by 2030, compared to a target of 51%.

2 hrs ago 10:14PM

There’s a looming shadow hanging over many economies today as US President-elect threatens new tariffs on multiple countries – Ireland isn’t one of them, but we could face knock-on impacts.

The leaders are asked about what they would cut from their plans if they needed to reign in their spending.

McDonald says what Sinn Féin wouldn’t do would be to impose austerity.

Harris says Fine Gael would borrow if necessary or introduce plans over a longer period of time than intended. 

Martin says that “the one thing that people can be guaranteed with Michéal Martin, and with myself, is that I will always put the country before party”, and talks about Fianna Fáil’s role in setting up the Future Ireland fund for future spending. 

(That’s not a typo, by the way, he did indeed say both his name and “myself”.)

2 hrs ago 10:25PM

Presenter Sarah McInerney cites findings that “radical action” is necessary to address the housing crisis. 

She asks Micheál Martin what kind of radical action would Fianna Fáil take – she asks a couple of times, interjecting as he talks first about the past and then about the party’s target for 60,000 houses per year. He insists reaching that target would be radical – “We don’t need to go back to the drawing board as some are saying.”

Harris defends Fine Gael’s record, saying its the top priority and that it would spend €40 billion over the next five years to deliver 303,000 homes – downplaying remarks by former Housing Minister Eoghan Murphy that housing was not made a priority. Harris now brings up the idea of “country before party” himself – when did that become a thing? – and says bluntly: “My party has never crashed the economy.”

McInerney challenges Sinn Féin’s housing promises and whether banks are on board. McDonald is adamant there’s no barrier on the banking side to her plans for the housing sector.

There’s been a fair bit of back and forth so far overall – both presenters trying to get straight answers out of the party leaders, who can stray sometimes from the questions they’re asked.

1 hr ago 10:34PM

Our FactCheck Editor Stephen McDermott is back with some more claims from the debate.

Earlier, Simon Harris called out for a fact-check of a claim by Mary Lou McDonald that Sinn Féin is not proposing to fund any current expenditure proposals from windfall.

For clarity, current expenditure refers to day-to-day spending like public sector salaries, public services and social welfare, as opposed to capital expenditure on things like housing and other forms of infrastructure.

Sinn Féin’s manifesto states that it would “invest a portion of windfall corporation tax receipts to deliver a catch-up infrastructure programme and build housing at scale”.

In other words, its section on windfall corporation tax only refers to capital expenditure. 

However, in a section about the use of the Apple tax (which is in itself is a windfall), the party also proposes to investing part of the money on 5,000 hospital beds, a form of current expenditure.

It also references other things like transport which, although vague, could also encompass current expenditure if it involves paying more bus or train drivers, for example.

In a segment on housing, Tánaiste Micheál Martin said that Ireland is now building more social homes than it has since the 1970s.

The highest number of Irish council houses were built in 1975, when local authorities built 8,974 units.

A total of 8,110 units were built in 2023 (the last full year for which data is available), making this the highest year since 1975.

However, there are a couple of things to note about this statistic.

Firstly, the Government has repeatedly missed its own social housing targets since Housing for All began in 2022.

And secondly, social housing construction has been relatively low since the early 1980s, in part because the private market began to take off in the late 1970s.

The number of social housing units a built every year was under 6,000 between 1980 and 2000, and hovered around the 6,000 mark for most of the decade before falling again after the crash in 2008.

The Government only built more than 6,000 social housing units twice since the crash before Housing for All began in 2022 (though one could say this shows the plan is enabling the delivery of much more social housing than has historically been the case).

1 hr ago 10:36PM

Sarah McInerney pushes Mary Lou McDonald for a direct answer on her plans for delivering social housing and where will she source enough construction workers to build them, given the current shortage. 

McDonald starts talking about the current government’s record on housing

“If you wouldn’t mind, Mary Lou McDonald, the question is: where are you getting the builders?” McInerney says. “Mary Lou McDonald, Mary Lou McDonald, would you mind answering – no one can hear you when I’m interrupting you and I will interrupt you if you’re not answering the question. The question is, where are you getting the builders for your 93,000 social homes by 2030.”

McDonald says too many apprentices are dropping out of their courses because the courses take too long to complete and that the industry says labour will be attracted by “reliable work”.

1 hr ago 10:39PM

Here’s a recap of some of the answers to housing questions (videos by RTÉ):

1 hr ago 10:45PM

After the ad break, the first topic is healthcare. 

Despite it being one of the most important issues, there’s not much heat in this portion of the debate – all three agree there are significant problems with the health system. Harris even says at one point: “I don’t want to shock Mary Lou McDonald but on this point I agree with you.”

1 hr ago 10:49PM

Discussion about mental health policies becomes more contentious, though. Some fractures are clear between coalition partners Martin and Harris; Martin criticises parts of Harris’ manifesto, which Harris is very quick to push back on – adding, though, that he expects the criticism is due to a misunderstanding rather than a deliberate intention to be misleading. 

1 hr ago 10:57PM

FactCheck Editor Stephen McDermott has another couple of quick claims squeezed between two late ad breaks.

Earlier, Mary Lou McDonald claimed that the Banking and Payments Federation of Ireland (BPFI) had never said it wouldn’t lend to those looking to avail of Sinn Féin’s affordable housing plan.

The plan proposes that the State would continue to own the land a house is built on, while there would be conditions on the sale and rent of the property.

Fianna Fáil in particular has repeatedly claimed that banks and the BPFI have expressed scepticism about the plan, though Sinn Féin have retorted that the BPFI have told the party there is major issues with it.

The claim and counter-claim came up in the early in the campaign, when The Journal sought a statement from the BPFI.

The federation said that the BPFI met with Sinn Féin for a “preliminary discussion” about the plan and “identified a number of issues that would require further consultation in order to enable lenders to provide mortgage finance”.

It said this only related to “some elements of their plan” and they did not say which, and that the BPFI was committed to working with “any future government to improve the supply of housing in Ireland”.

In other words, McDonald is right that banks have never said they wouldn’t lend – but they also haven’t said they would, and say they have identified issues (without saying what they are).

In another claim before the ad break, Micheál Martin and Simon Harris went back-and-forth on the claim that Fine Gael’s manifesto doesn’t provide for a single person to be recruited in the health service.

Although requirement numbers aren’t specifically mentioned in the budgetary section of Fine Gael’s manifesto, the document references hiring healthcare workers repeatedly.

It discusses the hiring of more therapeutic and medical staff, including psychiatric nurses, additional resources to support the recruitment of midwifery and medical staff, and investments in the National Ambulance Service to hire more ambulance staff.

The budgetary section also mentions growing the GP scheme by 80% over the next five years, providing 277 more training places – some of which will presumably translate into the hiring of GPs.

1 hr ago 10:57PM

More clashing and criticism between the party leaders over the issue of the justice system.

Martin says that there needs to be stronger laws around bail for violent offences and that the party would create two new departments to deal with justice.

McDonald is asked if she regrets her actions during and after the Dublin riots last year, and she says “absolutely not”.

McDonald doubles down on her criticism of Fine Gael Minister for Justice Helen McEntee – but Harris says he won’t “take a lecture from you on law and order”.

“Your position was to blame the head of the guards instead of the rioters,” Harris levels at McDonald.

1 hr ago 11:10PM

After another ad break, climate comes onto the agenda.

An evaluation by three academics from UCD, UCC and Maynooth this week published by Friends of the Earth gave all three parties on the stage tonight an ‘E’ grade for their manifestos from a climate perspective. (Fine Gael scored 38, Sinn Fein 33, and Fianna Fáil 30 out of 100.)

Martin says he thinks that report was “unfair” and that he “robustly defends” Fianna Fáil’s commitment to climate action. “I’d like to engage with the people behind that report because it was very unfair to Fianna Fáil,” he claims.

In the context of the parties not setting out how they would tackle aviation emissions, Sarah McInerney challenges Harris over a recently-revealed dinner in 2022 between Fine Gael minister Paschal Donohoe with Ryanair owner Michael O’Leary.

Harris defends the meeting, saying it was appropriate, and swiftly moves along to defending Fine Gael’s climate record. He says Fine Gael scored “significantly higher” than the other two parties on the stage.

Well, only if 38 is “significantly higher” than 33 (Sinn Féin) or 30 (Fianna Fáil). (The Social Democrats received 71 points and Labour received 79, for context)

McInerney brings it back to Michael O’Leary, who recently launched a Fine Gael candidate’s campaign, and asks how much influence he has over Fine Gael’s climate policy. “None,” Harris inists.

McDonald is challenged over her repeated insistence that carbon taxes have not decreased Ireland’s emissions. Responding, she calls the tax “lazy” and says the government is overly relying on them.

1 hr ago 11:15PM

Some final claims from this evening as checked by our FactCheck Editor Stephen McDermott.

During a section on climate change earlier, Simon Harris claimed that environmental group Friends of the Earth rated his the climate proposals in his party’s manifestos better than Fianna Fáil’s or Sinn Féin’s.

Although that is technically true, the academic evaluation rated all three parties’ proposals with an E grade: Fine Gael scored 38%, compared to Sinn Féin’s 33% and Fianna Fáil’s 30%.

Meanwhile, Mary Lou McDonald also claimed that a report from the Comptroller and Auditor General had found that around 40% of the funds raised from the carbon tax, which were supposed to be ring-fenced for climate action measures, could not be accounted for.

A report by the C&AG published in September found that this was the case.

It said that no central tracking system currently exists within the Department of Public Expenditure for carbon tax receipts, and that there will be no way to determine that all carbon tax receipts were allocated to the targeted areas in 2030.

1 hr ago 11:17PM

Under questioning about coalition talks, Martin gives one of the most definitive answers of the night when he says that Fianna Fáil would not go into government with Sinn Féin after the election.

“Is there anything you admire about the Sinn Féin leader?” Miriam O’Callaghan asks him.

“I’m not getting into silly stuff,” Martin says.

1 hr ago 11:19PM

Harris also shuts down the prospect of working with Sinn Féin, saying that the parties are too far apart on issues.

McDonald says the two other leaders want to put each other back into government and that they thought at the start of the election campaign that they could “jive” their way back into government buildings. Harris interjects – “not from me”.

McDonald goes as far as calling the Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael “tweedledum” and “tweedledee”.

1 hr ago 11:24PM

Here’s a look at how those answers about coalition talks went:

59 mins ago 11:25PM

And each of the leaders face a final question about issues specific to their respective parties:

55 mins ago 11:29PM

And that’s it – the final leaders’ debate of this election is over.

If you were watching – how do you think they performed? Our readers’ Player Ratings is live now.

From all of us at The Journal, goodnight.

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